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+ | Kirk tells us literally “It does not matter how happy a person is” if they are “enjoying the pleasures of sin”. Kirk continues that righteousness [defined the WOTM way] will count on the “[[Last Judgement|day of wrath]]” [taken from Proverbs 11:4]. [http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/pr/11.html#4] Kirk tells us he personally had riches but in his opinion needed to be saved from sin. Kirk claims here that being saved brings peace and joy but without repentance and surrender peace won’t come and they remain with their sins |
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Revision as of 06:35, 13 March 2012
The Motive of the Sinner is the title of the third episode from season one of Way of the Master by Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron.
Episode Synopsis
Begins with filming the interior of a church and its massive stained glass windows
(00:42 - 01:06)
- Kirk begins the episode with "In this program, we are going to find out and focus on the importance of the reason we give sinners to come to Jesus. That is, the motive we give them to come to the savior because their motive will determine whether or not they will fall away from the faith. If they have the right motive for coming to Jesus, they will stay. If they have the wrong motive, they will fall away."
Perhaps their motive is to seek truth above all things. Most Christians have the same motive, unlike Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron who don't appear to get close to the truth about the Bible, the universe, evolution, and such. When honest Christians have a motive to find truth and come to the conclusion that Christianity is not true, people like Ray and Kirk are quick to label them insincere or never really sought Christ or they were never true Christians (commonly known as the No true Scotsman fallacy. Here is a quote from Dan Barker, one of America's leading Evangelical preachers now one of Americans leading atheists,
I did not lose my faith - I gave it up purposely. The motivation that drove me into the ministry - to know and speak the truth is the same that drove me out… Opening my eyes to the real world, stripped of dogma, faith and loyalty to tradition, I could finally see that there was no evidence for a god, no coherent definition of a god, no agreement among believers as to the nature or moral principles of a "God", and no answers to the positive arguments against the existence of a god, such as the problem of evil. Millions of people live happy, productive, moral lives without believing in a god. - Dan Barker [1]
Episode Walkthrough
What Do You Say to a Non-Christian?
(1:37 - 3:29) Street interview of random Christians giving their thoughts on why people turn to Christ. Ray asks what they would say to a person who says they don't believe in God, they have a girlfriend, are addicted to pornography, and have a lot of money. One Christian responds "What are you living for?" Others say that life is wonderful with Christ. One says that non-Christians can be happy.
Perhaps the main reason why people are Christians is because of their upbringing in a religious household. It does not seem coincidence that Christian parents tend to have Christian children, Muslim parents have Muslim kids, and Hindu parents have Hindu kids. Atheists and non-Christians can and have a happy fulfilling life. Incidentally it would help if Ray and Kirk gave a clear definition of a Non-Christian. Too often Christian evangelists call a person a Non-Christian even if that person believes in Christianity, goes to church and works hard to live a Christian life. If a few details of a person’s life don’t fit the model of Christianity that a particular evangelist is promoting that person can be branded a Non-Christian.
(3:31 - 7:08)
Ray tells us about the start of the 20th Century evangelists started pushing the, ‘Jesus will make you happy’ message instead of frightening people over their sins
Ray blames the church for Christianity's failures. Perhaps the real failure is Christianity itself. There is no more reason to believe in the Christian concept of Hell than to believe the Muslim idea of hell or in Tartarus which was the equivalent in the Greek and Roman religion. Ray and Kirk are frightening people over unproved and unlikely superstitions. In any case there may be a god who rewards Critical thinking and punishes blind faith, that's just as likely as Ray and Kird's concept.
Kirk starts with the Parachute analogy, tells us a man was given a parachute and told wearing it would improve the flight. The man puts it on sceptically but finds the parachute uncomfortable and other passengers laugh so he takes the parachute off bitterly and is convinced he was lied to.
This argument is very fallacious, it implies that people that leave faith is because of humiliation. This analogy is intentionally constructed to make it appear precisely as Ray and Kirk want the audience to think why people leave faith, but there are many other factors they leave out. People rarely leave faith because of humiliation, more likely the leave due to critically analyzing their beliefs. Perhaps they are sick of the religious dishonesty and hypocrisy, as often shown by the likes of Ray and Kirk. Maybe they are sick of religion being the cause of such suffering around the world.
Ray takes over describing a second man who accepts and wears a parachute despite discomfort because he is told he will have to jump out of the plane. Kirk continues that the first man is bitter and disillusioned since his flight didn’t improve and he won’t try anything like that again for a long time. The second man wears the parachute to escape the future jump and “he has a deep rooted joy and peace in his heart knowing that he is going to be saved from sure death.”
The analogy intentionally and dishonestly continues to paint apostasy as bitterness and disillusionment, to make it appear foolish or childish.
Incidentally someone who knows he will soon need a parachute to jump from a plane isn’t likely to experience, “a deep rooted joy and peace in his heart”. Similarly people who believe the type of Christianity that focuses on hell aren’t peaceful, rather they continually fear they won’t be good enough for heaven or their loved ones won’t make it to heaven.
Ray continues that in his opinion the modern gospel tells people accepting Jesus will make them happier, metaphorically improve their flight. A sinner tries it out but faces “temptation, tribulation and persecution” so he gives up Christianity, becomes a “bitter backslider” and is less likely to try out Christianity in the future.
Christian persecution? Is mockery persecution? Did the air marshals arrest the man with the parachute simply because he had a parachute? No. Did the flight attendant refuse to serve the parachute person? No. In western countries where Christianity is strong so-called persecution is rarely worse than mockery.
Street Interview
(7:10 - 8:33)
- First Interview is a bald man who lost a lot of close people that drove him away from Scripture and Christianity.
- Second Interview is with a black man said he used to go to church, but that was where he would encounter the worse people. He still believes, but no longer attends church. Ray says Satan is a liar and Satan does not want this person to ascend.
Religion does not make you a better person, and often the worst hypocrites are in church. Some Christians can be very hostile from missionaries kidnapping children, people shooting doctors, religious people pushing to suppress others and take away their rights.
First Lesson
(8:34 - 9:22)
Scene returns to Ray and Kirk sitting in a church, Kirk repeats that Christians should frighten people instead of promising happiness. People should, ” run to the savior to escape the wrath to come.” Kirk quotes Acts 17:30 that god has commanded all men to repent and will ”judge the world in righteousness.” Righteousness counts rather than happiness.
Only in Kirk's analogy people must jump, but there is nothing forcing them to. Both Ray and Kirk cherry-pick which Commandments to fit their are you a good person? tactic. In Acts 17, some philosophers laughed." A god who imposes infinite punishment for finite sins can be considered a tyrant rather than righteous and it’s fortunate that there is no evidence for the god of the bible.
(9:23 - 9:40) The video at the end of this page is now private, therefore a different video was used to check the text from here on, *New video
Scene of flipping through pages in the glossary of the Bible. It stops and rips out the definition of righteousness. According to this program righteousness means having a right standing with God.
According to the bible God made us so none of us is capable of being totally righteous but will punish us eternally for sin that we can’t avoid. Jesus saved a few but most will perish. How can such a God be loving? Fortunately indeed there is no evidence for the Bronze Age and Iron Age God of the Bible.
(9:41 - 10:44) Switch scene to outside. Kirk tells us that a right standing with God requires perfect confirmation to God’s law and we can’t do it, we all have sinned. The bible says no single human being is ever righteous. Kirk returns to the regular WOTM analogy of a judge who can drop charges against a guilty criminal because someone else (Jesus on the cross) paid our fine. Kirk claims we need faith in Jesus and right standing with God not happiness.
Romans 3:10 says "There is none righteous, no, not one." Paul claims that there never has been a righteous or good person. [2] But see, Has there ever been a righteous person? As happens so often the bible contradicts itself. According to Gen.6:9, 7:1; Job 1:1, 2:3, and Lk.1:5-6, Noah, Job, Zechariah, and Elizabeth were all good and righteous people. If there has never been a single righteous human being then either Jesus was not fully righteous or Jesus was not fully human.
(10:45 - 13:47) Switch scene back to inside the church. Kirk tells us literally “It does not matter how happy a person is” if they are “enjoying the pleasures of sin”. Kirk continues that righteousness [defined the WOTM way] will count on the “day of wrath” [taken from Proverbs 11:4]. [3] Kirk tells us he personally had riches but in his opinion needed to be saved from sin. Kirk claims here that being saved brings peace and joy but without repentance and surrender peace won’t come and they remain with their sins
Elsewhere Ray claims being a Christian brings extra tribulation.
Ray continues, that the second passenger had peace because the parachute would save his life and Ray personally has peace through confidence that he is saved. Ray continues the parachute analogy and imagines the second passenger is hurt when hot coffee is spilt over him but the passenger keeps the parachute and may even look forward to jumping.
The second passenger was not saved from sure death, the plane never crashed or started to fail. Similarly there is no reason to believe the mythology in the bible. Christians find bliss in ignorance when they finds peace in believing though Ray, Kirk and other Christian fundamentalists often look anxious and fearful of hell rather than peaceful. Why would the coffee on the passengers lap make him look forward to the jump? Is Ray hinting that faith in Christ makes people look forward to death? Some Puritanical type Christians lead such unnatural repressed lives that there is relatively little joy in living.
(13 00) Kirk continues that when people take up Christianity for what he calls the right biblical motive i.e. to escape damnation they don’t lose joy and peace or get angry with god during troubled times, they come to Jesus for benefits in the afterlife rather than happiness here. Kirk adds that many who consider themselves Christians who lose peace and joy during troubled times because according to Kirk they didn’t repent and aren’t saved.
What would be the point of living if you cannot live happily? If Jesus cannot bring happiness, why follow him? Did God create us just to please him?
(13:48 - 15:21)
Scene changes to the coast of Southern California. Ray takes over and gives yet another analogy of young men surfing dangerously with waves up to 20 ft. and surfers would shout warnings when a large wave approached. If a wave broke over a surfer a surfer he could hold onto his board and risk getting hit fatally by the board, alternatively he could throw the board far away and dive into the swirling 20 ft. wave. Ray continues that prophets have been warning about the coming justice of god (represented by the big wave) and in Ray’s opinion god’s justice is closer now than it was millennia ago. The surfboard according to Ray represents our sins and rather than let god’s justice fall onto us we should thrust our sins away and dive into the mercy of Jesus.
Imagine if you switch this analogy around. The surfboard is not your sin, instead it is your -your faith in Christ. Thrust your superstitious fear from you and recognise that biblical mythology is no more reasonable than Greek mythology, Sumerian mythology or any other type of mythology.
(15:22 - 15:45) Ray continues that in his opinion how evangelists preach decides how the, “sinner” reacts. Preachers should encourage, “genuine biblical motives” otherwise people will come for life improvement and be disappointed.
As usual WOTM promotes guilt by referring to sinners. More seriously where we spend eternity appears to depend on how other people preach to us. How can this be seen as perfect justice?
(15:46 - 16:48)
Scene switches to show a Christian dancing around to get attention with a sign that reads "Jesus [Heart] You!" They show subtitles such as "Biblical Evangelism?" "Would Jesus do this?" Then scene switches back to Ray Comfort.
(16:49 - 17:21) Ray continues as before about preaching repentance and judgement, claims [as far as this author can see without evidence] that people who are genuinely repentant stay with the faith.
Street Interview
(17:24 - 24:47)
- Kirk offers three men twenty dollar if they pass his test (the are you a good person? routine, which they have purposely and dishonestly made so no one can pass). The men do not seem to know they are being filmed. One of the men seems to resist Kirk from going too far about inquiring if they have stolen or behaved badly. After Kirk gets though the are you a good person routine (saying God sees everything, including our thoughts), Kirk moves on and uses the court analogy, asking the person to imagine he is in court and guilty of a crime. The judge will not just forgive him because he asked. And then someone he does not know comes in and pays his fine, which is what Jesus did.
The interview ends with the rough men, some clearly the worse for drink:-
- turning away from their old lives to start new lives totally devoted to Jesus.
- turning away from Kirk to resume their habitual lives.
The video doesn’t make it clear which will happen but viewers can guess which is more likely.
TV Room
(24:48 - 28:34)
Scene switches to Ray and Kirk watching the street interview on a TV in a room. Ray compliments Kirk for his work and Ray is glad that while he was filming he did not have to drop everything to help Kirk in case a fight broke out. Ray asks if Kirk was nervous, he says he was nervous but he accomplished his goal. Kirk said he knew what do say and do it right, he did not dance around with a sigh that says 'Jesus loves you' because they would have thrown him off the pier (Ray says he would have assisted them because that signs does not send a message).
Ray would have assisted the rough men throwing someone off a pier? Is Ray serious? Throwing someone off a pier can lead to death, throwing someone into deep water can cause downing. Throwing someone into shallow water so that person hits a hard bottom or throwing someone awkwardly so that person hits a pier support can cause serious even life threatening injuries. Where in the Bible does it say misguided preaching or preaching WOTM thinks is misguided merits the death penalty? What type of example is Ray setting? What’s happened to the Sixth Commandment? As of February 16th 2012 Ray showed no sign of repentance as the comment remained without apology in the video.
Kirk responding to Ray's comment about the sign saying that when Christians appear, “like lunatics” others are put against Christianity. Kirk claims people should be shown their sin and why according to Christianity Jesus died and why they need to be forgiven.
What should turn people away if not a dancing Christian with a sign, but the fact that grown adults in the 21st century believe in fantasies like talking snakes, an invisible man in the sky who watches everything you do, the dead walk, hallucinations and trances are revelations from god, the earth is flat or several thousand years old, black skin is a curse, and such
Ray continues that the men agreed with Kirk and in Ray’s opinion that was because their conscience, “bears witness to God's law."
The Ten Commandments do not prove God any more than the 5 Pillars of Islam prove Allah or the 8 Paths prove Buddhism. Ray fails to see that authors of the Ten Commandments wrote them according to their moral values, they did not get them from God. Moral values existed in humans for thousands of years before Moses came down Mt. Sinai, see Biological evolution of morality.
Incidentally the men were not offended because Kirk is an expert and experienced manipulator. Anyone with experience of human nature knows people are frequently seriously offended when it is pointed out that they have done something wrong.
Kirk continues that Christians should move discussion away from issues like, Hitler, housing, overpopulation, and return to what he thinks is more important, the gospel, eternal life. Kirk recommends promising to come back to important questions like the above later. Viewers may get the impression such promises may not be kept.
Kirk instructs their religious audience to focus on the dishonest routine instead of answering important questions. Hitler was a Christian, there is no doubt about it. Ray and Kirk think Hitler was a "evolutionist" and not a Christian, but they are wrong and they know they are wrong. There are different opinions among Christians regarding rock n' roll bands, overpopulation, and such.
Ray repeats what he said on very many other occasions that in his opinion this is a biblical system which the church used in previous centuries, Ray recommends reading Mark 10 and Luke 18.
Do you know what Jesus said in Luke 18 and Mark 10 ? Luke 18:29-30 and Mark 10:29-30 say "There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake, Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting." Abandon your wife and family for Jesus and he'll give you a big reward. Luke copied this line from Mark, among many others.
Kirk ends the episode by telling the audience to visit their website, get the Evidence Bible, see the videos, CD's, etc.
External Links
Copied from Iron Chariots